E12: Our friend offered to be our surrogate in the UK but our embryos were in the USA: Stuart & Francis

Stuart & Francis

Stuart: [00:00:00] We went to drama school, it was like, you're not allowed to be gay. Don't tell anyone you are. If you do, then you won't get jobs. You won't get jobs. Yeah. And so I was kind of like masking loads of things in my twenties. 

Francis: I just remember him storming into the Bri storming with passion, it was like an afternoon in April where you know, we're not, can't go out and do anything.

It's like, Right, we're going to 

Stuart: have a baby. Whenever I see someone have success, I'm always like the biggest cheerleader cause. That is amazing because you are just showing me that that's possible for me too. That's something that I want to do like, like one of the 

Francis: myths is from, from what I've learned from Sam is like they don't want to keep the baby just because they're carry, They don't want the baby.

They're there to do it for someone else that they, that's in their intention from Day 

Stuart: dot so she said it and I was just like, This could work really well. And of course were you 

Francis: in a hot tub at the time? We were

Sanjay: Hi, I'm Sanjay Sood-Smith pronounce he him. And welcome to the Proud Parent Club, the inclusive lgbtq plus parenting [00:01:00] community. And today I'm super excited to be joined by Stuart and Francis Armfield Hagan Dad's to Rio through Surrogacy, which spans both the UK and the us, but we'll get to that in a little bit, who have shared their journey to and through parenthood across their YouTube and TikTok channels at Stuart and Francis.

Hi boys. 

Francis: Thanks for having us. 

Sanjay: Oh, thanks. Thanks for joining me. How are you Both 

Francis: we're just so good. This last year I feel like has been the best. Well, it's been the best year of my life. I can't speak for Stuart. How do you feel? Of course. It's been so good. , we're 

Stuart: We are 

Francis: great. We're so good. And we were just before we got on to say like, Our child is Rio's, nearly one, and just how quickly the year has gone Crazy.

Sanjay: I know. It's, it's, it's mad and he's down for a nap at the moment. 

Francis: Is. Yep. He's a good sleeper. Francis. He's been like, That's 

Stuart: aggressive sleep training. . 

Francis: Yeah. Six months. I wasn't blessed, but we weren't blessed with a baby that slept at the night from day dot. So at six months we just [00:02:00] did some a bootcamp.

Yeah. 

Sanjay: And, and, and, and Francis, I think you are like the, the me in your relationship. You are the one who's a bit more like research things to the absolute max and, and kind of find all the different like tips and trick. 

Francis: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well actually I just, all I need is one person to guide me and then just become obsess.

I'm just obsessive, I become obsessed with something and you have to, to make it work you like, you need to be obsessed and consistent. Actually, consistents a better word. So it's just consistent and . And now he sleep the night. And now I just wanna tell every parent 

Stuart: I know he's so pa, we could do the whole podcast about how passionate he is about getting children to sleep.

Francis: Well, almost 

Sanjay: as passionate about, as about sourcing breast milk, . 

Francis: Yeah. Very passion. Now. That too. Yeah. There's, 

Sanjay: there's lots of pa I'm sure there'll be lots of passions we'd get to. And, and let's, let's start at the beginning though. Uh, talk to me about how you guys met. 

Francis: Right. So we've actually been together in January, it would [00:03:00] be 13 years, so a really long time.

Um, both Stuart and I studied musical theater in uh, London. Drama school at different times though, so we weren't there at the same time. Um, and we both were like musical theater boys with that dream of being on the stage, which is we, we both did, which is amazing. Um, and actually it was my first professional job.

I was working with some people and there were two, uh, people who kept talking about this person called Stuart. And they were like, Oh yes, Stuart's so far. And I just remember like, I can remember exactly where I was listening to them talking about this fun guy. And then my flatmate at the time also knew Stewart.

So all these kind of random connections. So anyway, it led to this moment in a life where we were in a restaurant called Balance. Anyone listening is like this really restaurant in, it was actually in the soho. It was a in Chi balance. Such a great place. So sad. But anyway, , we in balance and it was a leaving drinks for my friend and I saw.

The end of the table. I had to go up to him and I literally just said to him, I feel like you're famous. I've heard so much [00:04:00] about you. Which I didn't realize I was just being genuine, but he, I loved it. 

Stuart: What a line. . But then this is a really interesting thing, is that then Francis like just kind of didn't pursue it.

And for the first time ever I did the chasing. I was the one who message you and saying, Do you wanna go here? Do you 

Francis: wanna do. It was all through lack of confidence. So basically I really liked him, but for some reason I didn't think he'd like me. So, and I just, there were signs there. I ignored Facebook messages.

I don't know even how the, how dare you. Anyway, it just led to this moment in our life where I was in a show in the West End and I had two tickets. Was it legally Blondes? Yes. Yeah, I was in amazing that game. I know. Love that show. Yeah, it was my 

Sanjay: favorite. I saw it. I saw it. And I, if I, I've only I'd known that was you up there, but I was really annoyed actually, cuz Doug got this ticket and, um, it was on a Monday and it was, it was on Sheridan's day off.

I was, I 

Francis: was, I was pba. She 

Stuart: was so good. Yeah, she was, she 

Francis: was amazing. It was [00:05:00] remarkable. Anyway, so I was doing the opening night. The show had two. One of them was my flatmate, who knew Stewart, and I met him earlier a few months earlier, and I promised him an open night ticket and I didn't really mean it, but then something happened when my friends kind of dropped out.

So I went, Ah, I can fulfill this promise that I wasn't gonna make. And I invited him along and then, We went on a date and then that the rest is history. The one thing watch Stewart was, which I loved about him, was like he was so, like as soon as it was like, Yeah, let's go on a date, he would ring me. He would like, it was really forward, like assertive, really assertive.

And it wasn't like this kind of texting kind of, it was like, Hi, When should we meet? And I I love that. Yeah. I'm not that in 

Stuart: life though, , 

Francis: when I was and, and, 

Sanjay: and I was gonna, I was gonna ask you about that actually. So have you always, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm asking this earlier than I planned, but have you always been like that?

Cause one of the things that I find, I guess, Like, I'm, I'm almost envious of this, like your ability to be so [00:06:00] unapologetically you and yourself, and I think that's something you talk about a lot on your social media. How you very much, you're, you are who you are and you're gonna live your life, how you're gonna live it.

And you are not afraid. Just go after what you want. And is that, is that how you've 

Francis: always been? Yeah, 

Stuart: it is. I've always, Yeah, I've, I've, 

Francis: He's ne he's, You could probably answer it better. Yeah, well, like two different kind of, I feel like he's rubbed off on me because I feel like as a person, maybe more like you.

Yeah. I used to, I still care, kind of. We all care a little bit what people think about us, but that really held me back. I was. Always very driven and very, very, um, persistent and hardworking. But in terms of being myself and expressing myself, I don't think I was like that. But Stuart, what I loved about him, he didn't care as much.

He wanted people to talk about him. 

Stuart: Yeah, I would prefer someone to talk about me negatively than not know who I am. Like that for me, For someone to not know who I am, not have an opinion about me, not speak about me, then you know that, then I prefer, I prefer someone to know 

Francis: me. But the, in the 13 years that I've known him, especially as he's kind of, he also built [00:07:00] his own business.

What I've noticed about him is that kind of like want, for like success became much more grounded in his own truth than. Kind of rather than when he was younger when we first met, he was like, Ah. But I feel like, yeah, that's aggressive. You've, you like really own your own self in a, in a different way.

Stuart: Yeah. I'm just, I'm just very confident with who I am right now. And I think in my twenties I was, You know, a young gay boy that was unsure. And in our musical theater world, the world has changed so much since we went to drama school. But when we went to drama school, it was like, you're not allowed to be gay.

Don't tell anyone you are. If you do, then it won't. Won't get jobs. You won't get jobs. Yeah. And so I was kind of like masking loads of things in my twenties. And it wasn't until I got to my thirties where I felt a little bit more established. And actually, do you know what this is? This is my truth. This is who I am.

I've got an amazing life and I feel like also one of the things that I'm super grateful for is that we've had this really strong relationship that's always felt really [00:08:00] great. Mm-hmm. to lean back on and whenever I was like pushing myself in other areas of my life, I always knew that I had a sturdy Yeah.

Base at home with the two of us that we were like in it together always. And that I feel like has really helped me kind of. channel my, yeah. My strength and yeah, and just, and and to be more confident with who I am and what I have to offer. Yeah. And as 

Francis: you get to know me and Stuart, you'll realize that we are so different personalities, like so different.

The way we think is completely differently, but we love the same things and I think that's why we really work. I second what Stuart says, like, we've been a unit since day one. Like I remember Stuart, he got into kind of reading, uh, personal development books and opening his mind up as he was like starting on his entrepreneurial journey.

And he didn't want me to get left behind. I wasn't in that place, but he said, Let, let's just read the same book. So we've. Always just done that as a couple, as just kind of grown together essentially, and [00:09:00] especially this last year, becoming parents. I think that's been the ultimate growth. 

Sanjay: great. Amazing.

And, and, and, and was that something that you always thought about having kids or when, when did you start talking about that? 

Francis: You know what, I don't think we did. I feel like in the last four years maybe. But prior to that, I didn't really think about having children. It's 

Stuart: so funny. So when the, the first kinda like first time we had a glimpse is I was on holiday with a group of friends and one of my friends said to me, Oh, do you wanna have a baby?

And it was just like a, a fleeting comment. And I was like, Yeah, maybe. Like, Yeah, well, I would love to have a baby, but I, I, it wasn't like something that I was thinking in that moment. Then one of her friends emailed me and said, I'm a, I've been a surrogate in, in America, and I'm looking to do a second cycle.

Would you know, would you be interested in using me? I'd wanna go through an agency, so, That would you be interested? And I was like, Well, I'd like to discuss it, but I dunno if I'm ready for it right now. Yeah. Um, and then that, that meant that like four [00:10:00] years before we had Rio, we actually had a meeting with a, an agency over in America, um, to discuss surrogacy.

And that's when it first, well first of all, I was like, the cost of it in America, . Scared life out of me. And that was one of the biggest things, like, okay, I've got, if I really want this, I have got to do some aggressive 

Francis: saving because, So I feel like it became one of those things which we, We'll do it.

We'll do it one day. Yeah, kind of. We're not gonna commit to anything like that. And it was really the pandemic that changed everything. So we were due to get married in the July. Then pandemic happened in the march. A couple of weeks in, we realized actually, okay, this thing is really serious. Cause I thought, of course we were gonna be free and be able to get married by July.

Then we realized, okay, that's not gonna be possible. And then Stuart's kind of the vision. He always cast the vision within our relationship and then I kind of figure out how we're, how we're going do it and make it happen. , 

Sanjay: that's exactly the same as me and Doug . We say that. We say that he's creative director.

I'm managing 

Francis: director. Yeah,[00:11:00] 

so true. So true. Like even when our socials for some, for some reasons like. We need to do blogs. So I go, When, Right. Here's the blog and I present him the blog. He kind of looks to him, , love it, Great post it, . But um, I just remember in storming into the room, storming with passion. It was like an afternoon in April where, you know, we're not, can't go out and do anything.

It's like, Right, we're going to have a baby. Okay. . So, you know, we'd saved a lot of money for our wedding. It was gonna be a great wedding, but we just. You know what we, what we are waiting for, we can have a great party any day, or not any day, but any year. Um, let's all our, our money into 

starting 

Stuart: a family.

But it actually stemmed from a conversation I had with one of my best friends, um, and she just basically said like, She was so kind. She said, If you, if you fall short of the money or whatever, I've got you. Like, you just need, just need to make this happen. Start the process now, because it could take 2, 3, 4 years.

You dunno how [00:12:00] long it's gonna take. 

Francis: Yeah. So just, and it's quite start now from that moment it was, it was a year and a half and Rio was born so it was relatively quite quick and in a time. The world felt like nothing was gonna be possible. And, you know, trying to work with, cuz we, we started, we're gonna do, at that moment, we're gonna do the whole process in the usa.

So working with the pandemic. Yeah. But we, we just, we made it happen, you know, it was, uh, Yeah. I'm glad we kind of, Well, I'm glad you. Started that trade together, honey 

Sanjay: and, and, and you started that in the usa And so kind of you kicked off your journey in the usa. You got to the point of like Craig MB embryos in the USA and then like you were, did you find surrogate 

Francis: in the usa?

Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did actually. 

Stuart: I felt bad for her cause we had to let her down. Because what happened was is that, um, uh, we had, we had everything in place. We had the egg donor in place, we had the surrogate in place, and then the egg donor let us down. Um, and so we were back to the drawing board with the egg donor.

And so I talked [00:13:00] about that to one of my friends. And previously, like a couple of years beforehand, she said, I will be your surrogate. But it was one of those, Oh yeah, of course you will. Ev I, we've got a lot of girlfriends and they all were like, I'll be your egg donor. I'll be your 

Francis: surrogate. So actually when, when, even though I, she wasn't the egg donor, but the, our egg donor had dropped out.

She felt like this was need to, She just, 

she 

Stuart: just said, I, I'll be your surrogate. And I mean that. And I was like, Oh. And then as soon as she said that, I could not stop thinking about it. Cuz I was just like, in terms of, obviously you've experienced it in America, but is this, and this, 

Francis: this is Sam you're talking about?

Yeah, this our, 

Stuart: our first surrogate Sam. Um, and just being like with the pandemic in mind. Just being able to have her in the UK and know I could get there for the birth and all those kind of things. I think I was playing all of our minds in that time of can we travel? I don't want my baby to be born and me not be there, and all that kinda stuff.

And so she said it and I was just like, This could work really well. And of course were you in a [00:14:00] hot tub 

Francis: at the time? We were . 

Stuart: I wasn't present. 

Francis: So he, he was, he was in the hot tub somewhere else, and then he called me the next day and I was, I, I still didn't, I was like, she was really drunk as well. Yeah. . I was like, What?

I really, Yes, of course. Yeah. We'll chat tomorrow. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it really, it just started the thing and then. Um, we just started to explore it, but it was kind of what we've done in terms of what the, our, um, doctors call in America, a hybrid system using the USA and the UK is kind of actually rare.

People don't tend to do a picture of the both. The reason we love, the reason we start the process in the usa and I'm sure maybe you, you did the same. We love the safeness of it and also the transparency of being able to choose our egg donor and speak to our egg donor and then know and see her know and see her.

That was really important to us. Yeah, and but then this friend, our friend offered and it was the perfect thing for us because. Then we, she could be [00:15:00] here, we could have the baby through the nhs. There was loads of benefits. Yeah. And, but there was also some risk as well because in the UK right now, the law is that when the baby is born, the surrogate is, um, and the And her surrogate.

And her husband. Her husband, yeah. Even though there's no genetic connection, they are the parents and Yeah, there is, there was risks. So there had to be trust. But we, we'd known Sam for five or six years and yeah, it just felt like, It 

Stuart: did feel scary though. Yeah. That cause of that law, we did feel. She could change her mind at any time, but the more you kind of like go down the process, you realize this girl is not gonna change her mind.

She is definitely doing this. Out of the goodness of her heart for us. Yeah. It was the beginning of like, Oh my God, what if, and everybody asked you that question as well, What if should change their mind? It's like a big like topic in the 

Francis: uk Yeah. Yeah. And all the, 

Sanjay: all the, like, all the dramas that you see on tv, they're all about like that, that scenario.

And I think for, I definitely kind of resonate with that because. When we were going through our process, even though we did have that security in the US of [00:16:00] the legal system being a bit clearer in terms of how things are dealt within the US actually, as we got through the process and had built our relationship with Amber, we just knew that even if we didn't have that legal security blanket, it wasn't gonna be an issue.

And we, you know, there was, there was no worries from our side on that. Part. 

Stuart: Yeah. And that's why I feel so much more confident going with our second surrogate in I'm, that that does not bother me at all anymore. And I, and the cases of somewhat a surrogate keeping it is. So 

Francis: reg one or two in like thou hundred, I dunno if there's been hundreds, thousands, but it's like the statistic is like zero point something percent.

You know? It's like, but 

Stuart: obviously in the UK that is the narrative of like the. Surrogate's gonna keep your baby. And I just don't think that is actually the truth of, But I also, it's 

Francis: like changing and that's kind of why we wanted. We wanted to have our platform online for so many different reasons, but also this spelling, these myths, like one of the myths is from, from what I've learned from Sam, is like they don't want to keep [00:17:00] the baby just because they're cannabis.

They don't want the baby. They're there to do it for someone else that they, that's in their intention from day dot. Um, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. 

Sanjay: And then when you got to, I guess the, the point of implanting embryos and I kind of, you revealed something after the facts that 

Francis: you didn't at the time. 

Stuart: Yeah. So we put, we put two embryos in, um, one of each of ours.

And I think it's actually the perfect thing cause it just, Cause otherwise we've had to choose, okay, who's gonna go first? And we just was like, Right, let's just put two in one of each. And so actually our gender. Was wasn't really was gender reveal, but actually it was to say we, in that moment when the, when the cannons went off, we then knew who the biological dad was as well.

Francis: And that's something we never, we never personally talk about online, but that's, it was a significant moment for, for us because we were, you know, It may, we, we had no idea. And, and because in the, in the US you're, you are allowed to, you [00:18:00] know, have gender selection of your, um, embryos or what was it, What's it called?

The proper science thing? P p I don't know. You might PS screening. Something like that. Yeah. So yeah, it was a, It was an important moment for us and what we're gonna do for, for baby number two, um, is whoever is not the biological dad of this, of Rio, the other dads going to do the next process. Amazing. And that a very balanced, happy family.

think cross. How 

Sanjay: was that emotionally then? Like what did, did, did it matter in the moment, like when you kind of found out that news? 

Francis: I feel like. It, it, it didn't, especially since he's been here. It doesn't, it really doesn't matter. But I suppose for one, for, for either person, maybe there might have been some.

Sense of, I, I don't, I don't think, I think it 

Stuart: affected you more. Yeah. Frances, actually, when we, when we Can you talk about that story? Yeah, I can talk about that 

Francis: story. 

Stuart: Frances actually, when we were [00:19:00] in the scan, the six week scan, and we only saw one embryo, France actually passed out. Yeah. Because he was just so like, What if it's your, what if it's mine?

What if it's mine and it's not yours? And I was like, Francis, this is, this is nature. You can't control nature. And actually I never had that feeling whatsoever because I always knew we'll both have one each, whether it's two together or one, one at a time. So I never really had that kind of feeling of like, Oh, fear of, of that.

But I feel like you were much more, Yeah, I 

Francis: was emotionally attached to that process. Passing out something I do out, uh, a lot of emotion. I've done it since a child . Um, but it was just, I was more nervous in that point than being there at the birth, which is very strange because that's a lot more intense.

But it was, it was, it was a emotionally, I was holding onto something around that, but, The more like, you know, we've gone through the process and it doesn't matter. Like even if we weren't genetically linked to our baby, it, it 

Stuart: doesn't Yeah. Like, and, and I think more and [00:20:00] more as Rio's getting older and older and we are seeing the love that he has for us.

Yeah. It's just freaking amazing. Yeah. Like it is so nice to have a, obviously the first. Six months, you get no response whatsoever and you're just hoping that they're gonna like, Whereas I really feel like today, like Francis is working out and me and R are waving to him, and I can just see the love in his eyes that he has for Frances and I know vice versa.

And I just like, it just makes me so happy. Yeah. That I just know Rio's gonna grow up in such a, like a wholesome environment and feel super secure as 

Francis: well. Yeah. And I think, you know, even though I, I would, I know in my heart. The, the one question or one challenge we, we get as gay dads is, or, you know, a, a child needs a mother.

Like, and that's sometimes does play on my mind still sometimes. And I, I know my heart that I, that I, he doesn't need a mother, but sometimes it just, it just, it just plays on my mind sometimes. And I just know from watching him and the way he's with [00:21:00] us, that he doesn't care. He just, he just, Once love. But that is one of the reasons that maybe I did hold off from thinking about having a family when I was younger because I had such a connection to my mum and I couldn't imagine growing up without that connection to my mum.

But what I've come to realize is I did have a connection with the mum because of gender. I had a connection because she was an incredible nurturing maternal person, which is something that we all, um, we all have and I really hope. Also sharing our story on online that dads, whether they're in a gay dad relationship or a heterosexual sexual relationship, they know that they can be, you know, they don't have to do what society has said before.

You know, the dad is kind of less involved with the parenting process that is just learnt. Like we all are maternal and paternal and have all different skill sets, and I really hope as, yeah, gay dadds, we can show more men out there that. Yeah, they can be that role and, and it doesn't have to fall on the women's woman so much.

And actually we, we were on a, a cruise recently [00:22:00] with a friend of ours who's, who's heterosexual school, and she was like, I love watching how you both share your parenting because, you know, I can now go to my husband, like, I'll have a baby because I don't feel, I don't have to feel like, because I'm the woman, I have to do everything.

Um, 

Sanjay: which I think was really refresh. And, and, and, and on that note, I was gonna ask you, do you have, like, is there a clear division of roles between you or do you do, do each of you have different things that you do or is it all very mixed? 

Francis: Um, I'm just very like bold. . 

Stuart: Yeah. He's so strong. And I just haven't got the energy.

I'm just like, You, you do, you hun. So when it comes to food, when it comes to sleep, when it comes to all these things, He's just like a gr, he's like a bulldozer, a aggress, aggressive attack. I'm you're . So I just let him crack on with that. And also he's, he loves it. He absolutely loves it. So Frances does all of that kind of stuff and the 

Francis: day to day kind of like a relationship, like, you know, he's the manage director, you know, and I'm the creative director, [00:23:00] whatever everybody calls it.

But, uh, I just, I'm good at those more day to day things and I feel like, As baby two, number two will come along. I'm not gonna have time to do that for both. Yeah, so Stewart is, I feel like Stewart's gonna really come into his, his himself when Rio's a 

Stuart: little bit older and he, the thing is, when I look after Rio and I do it my way, everything's always perfect as well.

But he just, he's, he's just, Strong in his opinion. So you do come to my back and call sometimes and like, Right. Help me. Yeah. Because also when Francis comes in, I'm like, Oh, 

Francis: Jake , 

Stuart: I'm, I'm absolutely exhausted.

Sanjay: Um, yeah, like, I think, I think we, yeah, we, we have something similar, I guess because I'm, I'm working and Doug's not back at work yet, so he, Like he's with Aria more day to day, but then like, I'll kind of, I always do bath time with her. Um, and that's our little thing. And then, you know, on the weekend I'll get up with her and kind of spend some time so he could have a bit of a, a bit of a nap.[00:24:00] 

Francis: How have you found, how have you found be working and how was that process of going back to work? Was that 

Sanjay: hard? It's, it, it was, it was hard and it's kind of, it's, it's, I'm still managing through it. I think I, but what I do is have to just set, set very clear boundaries. So at basically when come, if I'm, some days I work from home, which is really great cause I get to spend more time with arra in the morning.

But then if I'm on a day where I'm in the office, I set a clear boundary that unless there is a specific reason that I need to be in that office past five 30, I'm leaving and I go and I get home for six 15 and I've got 45 minutes where I can do Aria's, bath time and then um, give her a bottle and put her to bed.

And then if I need to carry on working, I can carry on working. But I just have to 

Francis: kind of set 

Sanjay: those very clear. Kind of boundaries to, to kind of make sure that I get to get, to spend that time with her sort of during the week. So it's, but it is, yeah, it's [00:25:00] definitely, uh, it is taking some, getting used to, that's for sure.

What's, what's been your biggest joy 

Francis: of being parents so far? Oh, I just love the purpose of it. Like I, it's such a purpose and I'm, I'm such a doer. I like to be busy and like there's always something to get up for, you know, Like he's like there, ready for me. Like I just, I just love the purpose and I love helping and, and helping him grow and seeing it develop and kind of what she was saying before as well, like right now, him giving and showing that love back is the, Rewarding thing ever because when their babies, obviously, they literally like just feed me and put me to sleep.

Um, and seeing, yeah, seeing the love that he has foot for, for me and for us is nothing, nothing beats that. 

Stuart: I think my, one of my biggest joys is actually like the unit that me and Francis had before. Rio has just got stronger and stronger and stronger. And I really feel. Before we actually had Rio, I was always like [00:26:00] the, I suppose, higher owner.

So I was always the driver and, but as I feel like now our kind of life is much more like we're in this together. Yeah. And we are like much more balanced and it just feels so much nicer and like working as a team 

Francis: with, And it comes, it comes, it comes with its challenges because obviously, You know, I think the hard talking about the opposite side of that.

What is the hardest 

Stuart: thing? The hardest thing is let go trust you to do that. Francis is 

Francis: love hardest. That's 

Sanjay: fine. It's fine. That was my next hardest question anyway. So you've done it for me. So that's all good. , 

Francis: you ask it. So , the hardest thing is letting go of your previous life and letting go of the things that you would always do.

So some of the things that I value, which I've maintained to my credit, Going to the gym, I just had to let go of, like, if I don't manage to do it that day because the situation doesn't allow it, that is fine. You know, he comes first, his wellness comes first. Um, letting go of having, you know, for Stuarts maybe letting go.

Like, I just need some an [00:27:00] hour of free time. I'm like, honey. Parenting doesn't stop 

Stuart: crack on. I actually haven't found it though. Cause that was one of my fears is that my whole world's gonna change and it's gonna be really hard and, and I actually haven't found that. I've actually, because I feel like we've been in a very fortunate position where we're both at home.

I really feel like life has. Grown and evolved rather than like changed and it's a, as a negative thing. Yeah. Like I've actually really, really enjoyed this past year and yes, it's been hard. Yes, I've been tired yet I'd like to, to have an hour by myself. But the overall thing, actually the fear of my whole life changing.

Is actually the smallest thing in, in, in my existence. Like it's, you know, as human beings, we all evolve, we all grow, and we're constantly craving growth. And I feel like this year we've grown as a couple and grown more than ever, and Rio's taught us so much. 

Francis: Yeah. Um, and when I, when I talk about the [00:28:00] challenges, it really is like a mini, like it is a minus school thing, and I.

You know, you hear a lot of parents complain about parenting and how hard it is, and you know, we, we all have our own experiences of life, but we kind of made that conscious decision as well when we were going through this process. Like it, we can't have a baby just like that. So let's not moan about those hard times.

Yeah. Let's try and change a perspective. 

Stuart: So when Rio's up at night, we call it midnight raid. After midnight raid, . 

Francis: Things. And luckily right now he doesn't do that so much anymore, but there are times midnight raids 

Stuart: will get in 

Francis: too much . There are times, you know, when he is unwell, like, you know, you have to, you are like just getting used to a routine or a development change happens and you're like, Ah, everything's changing.

So, But it's, we're gonna look back at this time in years to come and go, Oh my God. Remember when he couldn't walk? And it's just like, don't wish it to go faster. Just, just live in a moment. 

Sanjay: And, and that kind of approach you've just talked about, I wanted to ask you about as well, because one of the things you talk about quite a lot, and I think is one of your sort of affirmations that you use, is everything [00:29:00] always works out for us.

And, and I think when I first heard you say that on face value, I think it sounds like it means something quite different to what it actually means. Cause it almost means like, Oh, everyth. Perfect for us, but that, I don't think that's quite what it means. Does, 

Stuart: is it? Yeah. No, everything is definitely not always perfect.

No, no, no, no. Although I would love it to be, but it's just the way you look at everything in life. Like whatever happens to us. Like we went through three egg donors before we found our actual egg donors. And although at the time we were like, Oh, it's a bit frustrating, It's a bit shit. But also I just trust that the process that that wasn't the right one for us, and let's find the one that is the, let's find the right person that is the right person.

And we do have a connection with, and it feels great. And so yes, everything works out for us. Like it could come across a bit arrogant as well maybe, but actually it's not that at all. It's literally just the fact that we just trust that everything, like the universe has our back and we are just going down.

Blowing downstream as much as possible and just, and 

Francis: when, you know, we've [00:30:00] all had those life situations where when you look back, so something bad happens to you and then a few months later you go, Oh my goodness, I'm so grateful that happened because of this. This happened and this happened. But in the moment you are like, You, you, you can't see that.

So what I've, what we've learned is when those moments happen and they happen all the time, we are just able to go, There is a reason for this. Rather than sit in this frustration and anger for too long or whatever, let's just go, okay, this is, this is the way it's meant to be and, and kinda accept the situation and, and just focus on, on moving, moving forward.

So I feel that maybe. That's what it is. And just, yeah, and just expect also an expectation of good things happening. I think it's just a positive outlook, really. And I think we're, we, we, we live in a world where I find a lot of people are, are kind of, I call arguing, arguing for their limitations. They're complaining about the things that are wrong.

And that has a place, I think it's important to, to, to, you know, if you're frustrated to own that frustration, you'd wanna avoid, avoid that feeling. [00:31:00] There comes a point where you have to go, Well, what are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna focus on? Because staying in this place doesn't feel good. So I feel that, yeah, that's, that's our philosophy 

Sanjay: for life.

It's a bit of like a spin, a bit like a positive spin. Like everything happens for a reason almost. Yeah. Yeah. 

Francis: But I feel like sometimes, often in the pandemic, there was a lot of frustration going on and, and I had, you know, we were like, we so positive. And actually it was a time I was like, Oh my God, Actually, yeah, there was a bit of a.

What I call toxic positivity. Yeah. Where you can't just layer a level of positivity on a situation. You know, there are, there's all sorts of things going on in the world right now, and there is a place for going. It is a bit shit. This is really hard. And if you don't own those things, then you suppress.

You know, if you just cover it with positivity, you're just suppressing it. But, but it, yeah, it isn't just staying there. I think a lot of people tend to, I've been there like stay in that place and it's when, you know, if you relate this to having parent, uh, having kids or going through being gay parents or going through the process, there is a lot that is out of your [00:32:00] control and you just have to, Yeah, you just have to kind of let go of things.

And we learned that during the process. Like we, you know, Stuart is the. They wanted to micromanage every part of the process, and it's just not possible when it comes to nature and. 

Sanjay: Yeah, they, they can, they can control a lot of it, but there's not, there's certain things that you just can't plan for. 

Stuart: Yeah.

Yeah. And I feel like I did that, Sorry to interrupt you, but I felt like I did that a lot in my twenties when I was trying to prove myself. When I was trying to do that, I was like gripping onto all the things I really, really, really wanted. And what Rio and going through the pregnancy process really taught me is just that art of allowing, like I did everything I could to get the embryos in the right place and all these different things.

And then you've got got just trust. It's gonna do what it's gonna do. And that's also, if it doesn't work out, that's fine. And if it does work out, that's also amazing. 

Francis: Mm-hmm. 

Sanjay: and talking of those challenges, uh, your parental order process, . 

Francis: Yes. That was interesting. So in, in the [00:33:00] process, this is a good example of life, I was frustrated.

So basically what happened, we had, we. You know, totally new to this process. There is no handbook on how to do your parental order, or there is of the people that have gone before you. So there are so many amazing gay dads who were advising us who kind of, even there was one gay dads who sent us their documents, what they did for the court.

So we literally kind of copied it, but. I have no idea about legal language. It completely goes over my head. No experience in it. And anyway, so we had this first hearing, which was online, and basically it was like we turned up to our history class and we had no homework. It, that's what it felt like with the judge who was basically telling us off that we hadn't done anything.

Right. And there was, it wasn't 

Stuart: just us as well. No. Didn't have the 

Francis: forms from the, from the, um, the social worker, what we call it, the ca cast lady. So there was also a lot of admin areas on their end. But rather than, because there was a moment I was like, Oh, this is terrible. But actually, when I actually looked at my ourselves, I was like, We should have put more focus on this process.

We should have sought, you know, [00:34:00] sought legal advice, which is then what we did. 

Stuart: But we did. But just before we had Rio, I actually spoke to a lawyer and he was like, I don't, there's no point in me representing you because actually this is a really simple process, so I don't think you'd really need me to support you in this.

Um, so that's why we didn't seek legal advice straight away. But anyway, 

Francis: what ha ended up happening was we, we got a lawyer to help us through the process and then, then we had thought we'd done everything right. So we, we'd written these incredible statements written by the lawyer. Everything was in place.

And we got on this call like we were even dressed. We were like, This is the day, wear all pink. It's good. The day's gonna happen. And we got on the line and. Again, it was some really bad admin errors, I think from the court's part where they, The Jo judge was a little bit apologetic so that I was like, Okay, if she's a little bit apologetic, then there's, she's showing, showing signs that not everything is great and although she, you know, you don't wanna really argue with the judge, but.

We ended up having three court hearings. Um, [00:35:00] and again, at the end of the process, what we learned and what the judge said is the reason this is in place is to protect a process, to protect, to make sure people aren't, um, abusing women, basically abusing women. And, and 

Stuart: we understand, understand that because that was our biggest thing.

I just would hate to ever see anyone be abused in this situation. Yeah. But when you see so clearly this is not that kind of situation. Yeah. That was when it was a little bit 

Francis: frustrating. But yeah. And the goal posts are different for every parent and different for every court. So for instance, We had a letter from our doctor, which said, who was the biological filer?

But then when we got to the court, she was like, I need a DNA test. And no one else had done a DNA test. So what we are hoping is by cont again, sharing our stories that we can then help the next set of parents. 

Stuart: And I really wanna like help change this law. Yeah. Like I really feel like no surrogate in the uk.

Wants to have her and her husband's name and full parental rights over this child. No intended parent wants the same as you know, wants the same. And so I feel like [00:36:00] it would be, it would be just such a relief and if we could get that law changed in the UK where. As soon as the baby's born, the intended parents got on the birth certificate, then I just think it, everyone would feel so much safer.

It wouldn't feel so underground and mm-hmm. , wherever. I just feel like it would make such a difference. So that's one thing I really am, I think, yeah, 

Francis: trying to help the aftercare for the surrogate is really important. After the birth is one thing we really wanna make sure with Sam. You know, we really took care of her.

We actually even got her some therapy afterwards. Cuz you know, it's a, it's a lot. You've just been through this with your body and then your body, you know, given birth. And then it's a lot to take on. But, you know, the last thing they want is we had to always go through them still. And there was one time actually we, um, Rio got Covid, um, which the hospital didn't know at the time, so they thought it was something more serious.

And they gave us these forms to sign for something called a lumber puncher, which we, which we didn't end up doing, but we couldn't actually sign for it because we. Legally, his parents, Sam would've had to come down 

Stuart: from North [00:37:00] Wales to London to 

Francis: make that happen. So it just, Yeah. Yeah. The system is just, it's just old.

It just needs updating and it, it's as. With, Yeah, for our modern time with 

Sanjay: the lack of legal infrastructure, what it means is that there, it introduces a lot of variation into the system as you found with your parental order, where parents who did exactly the same thing in another part of the country and with another judge might have had a different outcome first time.

And so, yeah, but, and, and as you say, it doesn't offer. Let the, the right levels of protection and support that people could have. And I guess, you know, like you said as well, like surrogates, they don't want that, they don't wanna keep the baby. And so for, but then for them as well, like they're going through the process, you know, it's, it's stressful for intended parents, but I guess there must be a part in surrogate's mind going, What if they.

Decide not to take this, take this baby afterwards, I've left with the baby and, and yeah. You know, it just doesn't, it doesn't provide the, the right protection for, for anyone. I guess as things stand and [00:38:00] thing with the laws, as things are, what, I guess, what advice would you give to other parents who are going through this, this process 

Francis: now, if 

Stuart: you are doing surrogacy with, in the UK with someone you don't know?

Just really make sure you do a lot of getting to know you and making sure that it's the right fit for you all because your emotions are so high during this process. Mm-hmm. , and you are, you are, even if you're a really calm person, you're gonna have a little bit of anxiety about the outcome. And so you just wanna make sure that you've got a really strong relationship with your surrogate.

That actually it doesn't fall apart. It doesn't break away because of, 

Francis: and I think that's, and that's why in America, obviously the system is, is so much better because there's so much in place and, But you. We recently have had a situation where, um, where our sec second surrogate is we have second surrogate that we're, we're hopefully gonna go ahead with, and she's going through medical tests and we, we worked with the clinic in the USA and they, they found some clinics in UK for her to do the tests and she ended up going to a [00:39:00] GP in London and for a physical exam, which just to, just to tick a box to make sure she's whatever, passing that exam and the GP.

Really challenged her and about whether she should be doing this, not based on her. Whether she, you know, her body's right for it. Um, which is not really her job. Her job was to do past the physical exam. And what I can gather from the conversation is she was kind of enforcing her opinions on surrogacy rather than doing her job as a doctor, which was just interesting.

But in some ways I'm glad that happened because our so came from that situation even more sure that what she was doing was right because, you know, she, there are gonna people that that. I suppose gonna think differently and not think this is right. And maybe for the surrogate it could be a family member, um, who maybe don't agree.

And we live in a, in a, in a world where we don't always agree, but you, you just wanna make sure they're 100% clear about what the process entails [00:40:00] and, and for their family. And that how their family feels about it too is really important. So, um, yeah, it's just, I 

Stuart: dunno about you also, but I felt like the.

Surrogacy situation. It's quite underground right now. It's like they, you, you say, Okay, I'm gonna have a baby. And then you're like, Oh, what do I actually do? And that's why we first went to America because it just felt much like safer in that way. Whereas like in the uk it's like, Oh, I know someone's had a baby.

Then you speak to that person and then, okay, they, they did this and everything's so different and. And so I feel like that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have a bit more of a voice on social media is because I wanted to be that support for other people. Because when I first decided, Okay, we wanna be, we wanna do be a dad, and there was nothing, like right now there's, there's a few more people popping up, which is just amazing.

And I'm just so happy seeing all these gay dads popping up. She's amazing. But at the time, When all three of us were go, Four of us, yeah, three of us were going through it. Then there wasn't really UK voices on social, so I [00:41:00] would've loved to have asked you questions of how you did it and all those kind of things.

Yeah, so that's why I really wanted to do the social. Kind of side of this, because I would love to help as many gay couples actually achieve this goal. Mm-hmm. . 

Sanjay: But with what you're talking about with the, um, the GP situation as well. Like I, I guess, like you say, maybe not that person's role to be doing that, but actually that's one of the things that is missing in the UK system is having someone kind of ask those questions, which, like you say in America, they will really.

Test those things with someone to help them make sure that it is the right decision for them, and obviously with a, in a, with an unbiased unopinionated lens on it. But actually that is the kind of thing that needs to be built into the process in the uk, but currently isn't there because of the lack of legislation around this topic.

Francis: Yeah. And the thing is, because we're doing a hybrid system, we have to um, the American do the American way. So our surrogate does, um, have a sit sitting with the [00:42:00] psychiatrist or whatever to kind of really analyze kind of whether she wants to do this. So kind of we feel protected in, in that place. But 

Stuart: that might happen in the UK too.

I'm not sure. Yeah. That might still happen in the uk. Don't know. Yeah. Don't, We're very in our own 

Sanjay: way. Yeah. Your, your high, your hybrid way.

what are the values that you want to pass on to R 

Francis: Kindness ? I want being kind is one of my, I just feel like I, I'm a kind person. I feel like she's a really kind person and, and just when I look at my parents and how they. They were with us and continue to be with us. And I've got three brothers and all my brothers are really kind, caring people and yeah, I think it's really, really important.

Um, you know, they are growing up with a different family and you know, they may, may come across, I don't know. I really hope that Rio grows up in a world where having two gay dads isn't a thing, but, you know, just pay everyone with [00:43:00] kindness. 

Stuart: Yeah, I'm just really excited to shape him into whoever he wants to be.

That for me, I've just really excited to kind of like find his unique genius and then really like hone in on that and just run with that, whatever that is. Um, yeah, that's one of the things I'm really, really excited about. Cause when I was younger, my mom just basically put. In every group, every class. And I was doing all kinds of different things.

And then she found out by Love musical theater and then she really like honed in on that and helped me achieve that as a, as a career. And I'd love to be able to help Rio do the same, whatever that is. I also feel 

Francis: like our, So 

Stuart: I'd love to, I love, I'd love him to have drive. I 

Francis: definitely want him to be driven, whatever he wants to do.

But I feel like our superpower growing up as a gay kid, but actually this is relevant to everyone because everyone grows up with struggles. But I feel like growing up as a gay kid in the nineties and, and you know, there was so much we had to overcome. Um, and still overcome emotionally. And, [00:44:00] and what I, what this has led to me when I'm 35 now, I really feel like I can understand myself so much more.

And what I would just, just wanna be there for him, like really as much as I can. And I just feel like I'll be, I, I'm well equipped to help him navigate the world, um, in, in through the struggles that I've experienced. 

Sanjay: And and how, like, cuz this is something I think about, like what you've just said and that, you know, I think growing up when you're gay, you, you realize when you're older there's quite a lot of trauma that goes with that, particularly when you're like suppressing a part of yourself and, and aren't able to be who you are.

And the whole world is telling you that you can't be something and you've gotta ki kind of overcome that. But like, And then how will it be for these kids who are growing up in these families where I guess by, by virtue of the, what we've gone through, we will be a lot more open-minded about whatever, you know, um, whatever, however these kids grows people.

But you know, [00:45:00] that kind of, that, that view, 

Francis: Stuart, you were just talking 

Sanjay: about, about empowering them to find that genius in them and, and what they are. And that, I guess your, your perspective on being, having that confidence to be who you are. How do you, how do you in practice, What do you do to build that?

Stuart: That's a really good question. I don't know what I've, I, I just naturally, I feel like growing up my mom always helped me understand that being different, standing out was a good thing. So she really like enforced that in my young years of like, everyone's wearing this. You don't wanna wear that, you wanna wear this.

It's much better to, to be different. So I've always enj, I've always enjoyed also, Pushing people's boundaries as well. So like France's mom and dad, like I love, We went to Gay Pride in Brighton and we were the gayest outfits ever. And I enjoy going into France's parents and saying, Look at us in our short shorts and our little crop tops, and him feeling a little bit uncomfortable, , they, I 

Francis: mean, they're also, they're the most [00:46:00] over minded people as well.

So like, but it's just it. He just loves pushing their buttons, pushing their button. A 

Sanjay: little bit and, well, your and your mom seems to be a loving life. France. 

Francis: Oh, she's loving life. And his dad 

Stuart: is, they're both what I've learned from, uh, France's parents, which I definitely wanna put into my, um, Family is just like no judgment whatsoever like that.

Like that they could just let you allow you to be, 

Francis: don't they? Yeah. So my par, my mom and dad are the complete opposite to his mum in some way, which, you know, I would've actually loved maybe a mom that was a little bit more pushy and like, Go, go do this. But my parents also let me figure out things on my own, but the one thing they've always had is no judgment.

So like, if I had. A partner home, which I haven't really, Cuz you're the only partner. I really bought a home, but it wasn't right. They wouldn't have said, that's not the right person for you. Right. My mom definitely would where he, his mom would've, they would've, they just don't have judgment I think cuz they, they've been working with ese people for 40 years.

They've just learned that's, it's just part of their, their being. And I think having no [00:47:00] judgment is, it's a really hard thing. Cause we have all these judgements just. Built in. But yeah, it's something to, something to aspire to. But I think, I think for what you, in answer to your question before, it's just like affirming to the, It's coming, coming back to this word, confidence.

Because confidence seems like such a GSE kind of drama, like confidence , but so much is built on confidence. And if you can. Help someone be comfortable in who they are and comfortable. If they feel a bit different, feeling comfortable with their difference, then they're not gonna be afraid to, to, to go out there and, and push themselves and, Yeah.

And I've never worried 

Stuart: what people think. It's, it's so strange. Of course, I worry about the, I, I would hate to upset someone. If I upset someone, I purposely upset them. I would be. I would not be able to get over that. It would take me days to get over because I always wanna make sure that everyone leads me happier than they found me.

But like I e, even when I was like a teenager, I used to buy Heat Magazine and I used [00:48:00] to go flick through to the Circle of Shame on Heat Magazine and look at all these people coming out of nightclubs with cellulite and them circling it. And I used to think to myself, I would just love someone to care enough about me to take a photo of me coming out of a nightclub like that.

That would, that must be, although that's a terrible thing for them, I'm sure they're like, Oh my God, poor me. But I was just like, I would love that because that just means that someone cares enough about me to actually post it. Um, so that I've always had that kind of mindset of like, it doesn't matter as long as I know morally that I'm doing everything in, in a really good space and I wanna make sure that everyone's happy.

If un, if people don't understand that happiness, that's also fine and it's part of the balance of life and not everyone's gonna understand me. And so, I've, How do I teach that? I don't. I do not know, but I feel like by teaching Rio to be mega confident and fully own himself and fully realize his full potential, that in turn will enable him not to worry so much what other people think.

Yeah. 

Francis: An element of [00:49:00] life is. You know, is to put your blinks on a little bit. I think in a world of social media, there's a lot we can all afford to comparison and all those things. And uh, and at some point you just have to go, This is what I wanna do, I'm gonna go for it and I'm just gonna have to, 

Stuart: But yeah, and, and sorry.

We can talk for days on this cause I just love talking about it. But like all the, in closing of this, of this question, , is that when I see, I don't ever, I don't ever compare myself to other people. Like I don't feel like, Oh God, I'm frustrated about this person's done this. I get so excited seeing other people succeed because I just know that if other people are doing it, then we can too.

And at that, for me, like whenever I see someone have success, I'm always like the biggest cheerleader. Cause I'm. That is amazing because you are just showing me that that's possible for me too. That's something that I wanted to do, like, so I never had that comparison. 

Francis: Well, 

Sanjay: I think that's quite an inspirational place to finish, so thank you so much both of you.

It's, that's been enlightening and I, I've really enjoyed [00:50:00] chatting you today and good luck with. Number two, I will be, I'll tell you what, when, when, with number one, Cuz you were about, you know, Rio's, about a month younger than Aria. But we were going through the process at similar times. But me and Doug were like watching your YouTube videos every single week.

Cuz we were kind of, it was nice to almost like, we didn't know you then, but it was nice to almost share that. Experience with someone going through it at the same time. So I'll be, I'll be enjoying watching, uh, watching everything you put out, um, on journey number two. So thank you. Thanks very 

Francis: much. Thank you so much.

That's it for 

Sanjay: this week on the Proud Parent Club podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. And don't 

forget, there's a new episode 

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